От Павел Власов
К Begletz
Дата 19.01.2003 00:23:18
Рубрики Прочее; Россия-СССР;

?

Извините, а что означает сокращение "ИМХО"? Очень часто встечается, но никак не могу догадаться что сиё означает.

П.В.
От Дмитрий Ниткин
К Павел Власов (19.01.2003 00:23:18)
Дата 20.01.2003 10:10:06

ИМХО=Истинное Мнение Хрен Оспоришь (-)
От Pout
К Павел Власов (19.01.2003 00:23:18)
Дата 19.01.2003 12:30:56

Новый словарь Хакера. К дискуссии о юморе(*)


Павел Власов сообщил в новостях
следующее:84195@kmf...
> Извините, а что означает сокращение "ИМХО"? Очень часто встечается, но
никак не могу догадаться что сиё означает.
>
> П.В.

:IMHO: // /abbrev./ [from SF fandom via Usenet; abbreviation for `In
My Humble Opinion'] "IMHO, mixed-case C names should be avoided, as
mistyping something in the wrong case can cause hard-to-detect errors
-- and they look too Pascalish anyhow." Also seen in variant forms
such as IMNSHO (In My Not-So-Humble Opinion) and IMAO (In My Arrogant
Opinion)

выражения (аббревиатуры) подобные ИМХО ,"смайлики" - это отдельные
кусочки профессиональной субкультуры программистов

НСХ - это энциклопедия жаргона ,юмора и культуры нескольких
поколений"настоящих программистов". Вышло уже 4 издания книги, есть
отличный полный русский перевод ,творческий (в сети полно всяких
русских компьютерных жаргонариев и сборничков, в основном
хохмачески-юмористических, а вот самого русского НСХ -нету)
Дальше я пристегиваю выдержку из исходника Нового СловаряХакера - это
так называемый"Файл Жаргона". Разъясняются еще некоторые термины,
например"юзер" . Если Вам не интересно - можете пропустить

=========
JARGON FILE, VERSION 4.0.0
This is the Jargon File, a comprehensive compendium of hacker slang
illuminating many aspects of hackish tradition, folklore, and humor.


:Introduction:
**************

This document is a collection of slang terms used by various
subcultures of computer hackers. Though some technical material is
included for background and flavor, it is not a technical dictionary;
what we describe here is the language hackers use among themselves for
fun, social communication, and technical debate.

The `hacker culture' is actually a loosely networked collection of
subcultures that is nevertheless conscious of some important shared
experiences, shared roots, and shared values. It has its own myths,
heroes, villains, folk epics, in-jokes, taboos, and dreams. Because
hackers as a group are particularly creative people who define
themselves partly by rejection of `normal' values and working habits,
it has unusually rich and conscious traditions for an intentional
culture less than 40 years old.


As usual with slang, the special vocabulary of hackers helps hold
their culture together -- it helps hackers recognize each other's
places in the community and expresses shared values and experiences.
Also as usual, *not* knowing the slang (or using it inappropriately)
defines one as an outsider, a mundane, or (worst of all in hackish
vocabulary) possibly even a {suit}. All human cultures use slang in
this threefold way -- as a tool of communication, and of inclusion,
and of exclusion.




Among hackers, though, slang has a subtler aspect, paralleled perhaps
in the slang of jazz musicians and some kinds of fine artists but hard
to detect in most technical or scientific cultures; parts of it are
code for shared states of *consciousness*. There is a whole range of
altered states and problem-solving mental stances basic to high-level
hacking which don't fit into conventional linguistic reality any
better than a Coltrane solo or one of Maurits Escher's `trompe l'oeil'
compositions (Escher is a favorite of hackers), and hacker slang
encodes these subtleties in many unobvious ways. As a simple example,
take the distinction between a {kluge} and an {elegant} solution, and
the differing connotations attached to each. The distinction is not
only of engineering significance; it reaches right back into the
nature of the generative processes in program design and asserts
something important about two different kinds of relationship between
the hacker and the hack. Hacker slang is unusually rich in
implications of this kind, of overtones and undertones that illuminate
the hackish psyche.


But there is more. Hackers, as a rule, love wordplay and are very
conscious and inventive in their use of language. These traits seem to
be common in young children, but the conformity-enforcing machine we
are pleased to call an educational system bludgeons them out of most
of us before adolescence. Thus, linguistic invention in most
subcultures of the modern West is a halting and largely unconscious
process. Hackers, by contrast, regard slang formation and use as a
game to be played for conscious pleasure. Their inventions thus
display an almost unique combination of the neotenous enjoyment of
language-play with the discrimination of educated and powerful
intelligence. Further, the electronic media which knit them together
are fluid, `hot' connections, well adapted to both the dissemination
of new slang and the ruthless culling of weak and superannuated
specimens. The results of this process give us perhaps a uniquely
intense and accelerated view of linguistic evolution in action.


Hacker slang also challenges some common linguistic and
anthropological assumptions. For example, it has recently become
fashionable to speak of `low-context' versus `high-context'
communication, and to classify cultures by the preferred context level
of their languages and art forms. It is usually claimed that
low-context communication (characterized by precision, clarity, and
completeness of self-contained utterances) is typical in cultures
which value logic, objectivity, individualism, and competition; by
contrast, high-context communication (elliptical, emotive,
nuance-filled, multi-modal, heavily coded) is associated with cultures
which value subjectivity, consensus, cooperation, and tradition.




:Hacker Speech Style:
=====================

Hackish speech generally features extremely precise diction, careful
word choice, a relatively large working vocabulary, and relatively
little use of contractions or street slang. Dry humor, irony, puns,
and a mildly flippant attitude are highly valued -- but an underlying
seriousness and intelligence are essential. One should use just
enough jargon to communicate precisely and identify oneself as a
member of the culture; overuse of jargon or a breathless, excessively
gung-ho attitude is considered tacky and the mark of a loser.

This speech style is a variety of the precisionist English normally
spoken by scientists, design engineers, and academics in technical
fields. In contrast with the methods of jargon construction, it is
fairly constant throughout hackerdom.

...

http://www.ccil.org/jargon.


:The Story of Mel, a Real Programmer:
=====================================
Real Programmers write in FORTRAN.

Maybe they do now,
in this decadent era of
Lite beer, hand calculators, and "user-friendly" software
but back in the Good Old Days,
when the term "software" sounded funny
and Real Computers were made out of drums and vacuum tubes,
Real Programmers wrote in machine code.
Not FORTRAN. Not RATFOR. Not, even, assembly language.
Machine Code.
Raw, unadorned, inscrutable hexadecimal numbers.
Directly.
...

....


:vaxism: /vak'sizm/ /n./ A piece of code that exhibits {vaxocentrism}
in critical areas. Compare {PC-ism}, {unixism}.


File: jargon.info, Node: vaxocentrism, Next: vdiff, Prev: vaxism, Up: =
V =

:vaxocentrism: /vak`soh-sen'trizm/ /n./ [analogy with `ethnocentrism']
A notional disease said to afflict C programmers who persist in coding
according to certain assumptions that are valid (esp. under Unix) on
{VAXen} but false elsewhere.
....


:samizdat: /sahm-iz-daht/ /n./ [Russian, literally "self publishing"]
The process of disseminating documentation via underground channels.
Originally referred to underground duplication and distribution of
banned books in the Soviet Union; now refers by obvious extension to
any less-than-official promulgation of textual material, esp. rare,
obsolete, or never-formally-published computer documentation. Samizdat
is obviously much easier when one has access to high-bandwidth
networks and high-quality laser printers. Note that samizdat is
properly used only with respect to documents which contain needed
information (see also {hacker ethic}) but which are for some reason
otherwise unavailable, but *not* in the context of documents which are
available through normal channels, for which unauthorized duplication
would be unethical copyright violation. See {Lions Book} for a
historical example.


:user: /n./ 1. Someone doing `real work' with the computer, using it
as a means rather than an end. Someone who pays to use a computer. See
{real user}. 2. A programmer who will believe anything you tell him.
One who asks silly questions. [GLS observes: This is slightly unfair.
It is true that users ask questions (of necessity). Sometimes they are
thoughtful or deep. Very often they are annoying or downright stupid,
apparently because the user failed to think for two seconds or look in
the documentation before bothering the maintainer.] See {luser}.

3. Someone who uses a program from the outside, however skillfully,
without getting into the internals of the program. One who reports
bugs instead of just going ahead and fixing them.


The general theory behind this term is that there are two classes of
people who work with a program: there are implementors (hackers) and
{luser}s. The users are looked down on by hackers to some extent
because they don't understand the full ramifications of the system in
all its glory. (The few users who do are known as `real winners'.) The
term is a relative one: a skilled hacker may be a user with respect to
some program he himself does not hack. A LISP hacker might be one who
maintains LISP or one who uses LISP (but with the skill of a hacker).
A LISP user is one who uses LISP, whether skillfully or not. Thus
there is some overlap between the two terms; the subtle distinctions
must be resolved by context.





:user-friendly: /adj./ Programmer-hostile. Generally used by hackers
in a critical tone, to describe systems that hold the user's hand so
obsessively that they make it painful for the more experienced and
knowledgeable to get any work done. See {menuitis}, {drool-proof
paper}, {Macintrash}, {user-obsequious}.



:user-obsequious: /adj./ Emphatic form of {user-friendly}. Connotes a
system so verbose, inflexible, and determinedly simple-minded that it
is nearly unusable. "Design a system any fool can use and only a fool
will want to use it." See {WIMP environment}, {Macintrash}.


:PC-ism: /P-C-izm/ /n./ A piece of code or coding technique that takes
advantage of the unprotected single-tasking environment in IBM PCs and
the like, e.g., by busy-waiting on a hardware register, direct
diddling of screen memory, or using hard timing loops. Compare
{ill-behaved}, {vaxism}, {unixism}. Also, `PC-ware' n., a program full
of PC-isms on a machine with a more capable operating system.
Pejorative.


что означает "Клюг"?
- Умный, - вставил я.
- Буквально - да. Но это еще и... нечто чрезмерно сложное.
Нечто такое, что работает исправно, но по непонятным причи-
нам... У нас говорят - "клюговать" ошибки в программе...





От Ольга
К Pout (19.01.2003 12:30:56)
Дата 20.01.2003 03:26:38

Продолжим ликбез?

Привет.

А не сказано ли в НСХ про словечко "флейм"? А то у нас намедни с коллегой спор вышел.
От Лом
К Ольга (20.01.2003 03:26:38)
Дата 21.01.2003 18:12:54

И типичный наглядный пример сверху... (-)
От Pout
К Ольга (20.01.2003 03:26:38)
Дата 20.01.2003 09:09:54

История термина "флейм"


Ольга сообщил в новостях
следующее:84260@kmf...
> Привет.
>
Привет
> А не сказано ли в НСХ про словечко "флейм"? А то у нас намедни с
коллегой спор вышел.
>
 Конечно,есть целое гнездо словарных статей. Рассказана и
"фольклорная история вопроса".

Отрывок из НСХ.

========
File: jargon.info, Node: flamage, Next: flame, Prev: flaky, Up: = F =

:flamage: /flay'm*j/ /n./ Flaming verbiage, esp. high-noise,
low-signal postings to {Usenet} or other electronic {fora}.
Often in the phrase `the usual flamage'. `Flaming' is the act
itself; `flamage' the content; a `flame' is a single flaming
message. See {flame}, also {dahmum}.


File: jargon.info, Node: flame, Next: flame bait, Prev: flamage, Up: = F
=

:flame: 1. /vi./ To post an email message intended to insult
and provoke. 2. /vi./ To speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some
relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous
attitude. 3. /vt./ Either of senses 1 or 2, directed with
hostility
at a particular person or people. 4. /n./ An instance of flaming.
When a discussion degenerates into useless controversy, one might
tell the participants "Now you're just flaming" or "Stop all
that flamage!" to try to get them to cool down (so to speak).

The term may have been independently invented at several different
places. It has been reported from MIT, Carleton College and RPI
(among many other places) from as far back as 1969.

It is possible that the hackish sense of `flame' is much older than
that. The poet Chaucer was also what passed for a wizard hacker in
his time; he wrote a treatise on the astrolabe, the most advanced
computing device of the day. In Chaucer's "Troilus and
Cressida", Cressida laments her inability to grasp the proof of a
particular mathematical theorem; her uncle Pandarus then observes
that it's called "the fleminge of wrecches." This phrase seems
to have been intended in context as "that which puts the wretches
to flight" but was probably just as ambiguous in Middle English as
"the flaming of wretches" would be today. One suspects that
Chaucer would feel right at home on Usenet.

:flame bait: /n./ A posting intended to trigger a {flame
war}, or one that invites flames in reply. See also {troll}.


:flame on: vi.,/interj./ 1. To begin to {flame}. The
punning reference to Marvel Comics's Human Torch is no longer
widely recognized. 2. To continue to flame. See {rave},
{burble}.

:flame war: /n./ (var. `flamewar') An acrimonious dispute,
especially when conducted on a public electronic forum such as
{Usenet}.

:flamer: /n./ One who habitually {flame}s. Said esp. of
obnoxious {Usenet} personalities.


=======
Перевод по русскому изданию
ФЛЕЙМ (вспылить,пылать негодованием). 1.гл.Отправлять по электронной
почте письмо с твердым намерением обидеть или хотя бы разозлить
всякого,кто будет его читать.2.гл.говорить безостановочнои\или в
скандальной тональности на малоинтересные темы, базарить,нести
откровенную чушь 3.гл.Любое из значений (1)и (2),адресованное в приступе
злобы конкретному человеку или группе. 4. сущ . Проявление скандального
поведения в общественном месте .
Когда в процессе дискуссии обсуждене отклоняется от темы,спорщики
переходят на личности и страсти накаляются, необходимо,чтобы нашелся
здравомыслящий человек и сказал -"Ребята,это уже базар!"или"Кончай
базар!"
...
...
Этот термин был введен одновременно и независимо в нескольких
местах,независимо друг от друга. Кроме того,нам сообщили,что в
Карлтоновском колледже в 1968-71 словом "флейминг"называли ночные
бестолковые бдения

(комментарий. Рассказана история появления термина,чисто фольклорная,с
весьма грубыми первыми коннотациями. Сразу в нескольких местах стал
употребляться этот впоследствии универсальное сленговый термин. Такая же
история приключалась и с другими жаргонизмами,вроде упомянутого мной
"клюг"или "клудж" .Для примера еще более давней фольклорной истории с
любопытными лингвистическими деталями привожу в конце словарную статью
НСХ и по этом термину.

Предшественник сетевого жаргонизма "флейм"- сленг студентов еще конца
60х годов. Появление его в эл.почте и затем в ЮЗНЕТ,т.е. "ньюс-группах"
или просто"ньюсах", своеобразной коллективной эл.почте, то есть в первых
формах широкого сетевого общения, предшествует его более широкому
последуюшему применению. Ниже упомянута одна из таких ньюсгрупп.они
бывают и читсо професиионального обсуждения четко определенной темы,это
называется"топик"группы. Названия групп состоят из нескольких
позиций,перая -родовой признак,далее -видовые. Названия бывают и из
3-4-5 позиций. Например,НСХ обсуждался в группе- the Usenet group
alt.folklore.computers. Форумы и гостевые книги сайтов -это последующие
формы сетевого общения после ЮЗНЕТ,ньюсы в РФ появились в 1992-93. Затем
это слово стало употребляться уже и в отношении других форм общения -
СП)


==============

File: jargon.info, Node: kluge, Next: kluge around, Prev: kludge, Up: =
K =

:kluge: /klooj/ [from the German `klug', clever; poss.
related to Polish `klucza', a trick or hook] 1. /n./ A Rube
Goldberg (or Heath Robinson) device, whether in hardware or
software. 2. /n./ A clever programming trick intended to solve a
particular nasty case in an expedient, if not clear, manner. Often
used to repair bugs. Often involves {ad-hockery} and verges on
being a {crock}. 3. /n./ Something that works for the wrong
reason. 4. /vt./ To insert a kluge into a program. "I've kluged
this routine to get around that weird bug, but there's probably a
better way." 5. [WPI] /n./ A feature that is implemented in a
{rude} manner.

Nowadays this term is often encountered in the variant spelling
`kludge'. Reports from {old fart}s are consistent that
`kluge' was the original spelling, reported around computers as
far back as the mid-1950s and, at that time, used exclusively of
*hardware* kluges. In 1947, the "New York Folklore
Quarterly" reported a classic shaggy-dog story `Murgatroyd the
Kluge Maker' then current in the Armed Forces, in which a `kluge'
was a complex and puzzling artifact with a trivial function. Other
sources report that `kluge' was common Navy slang in the WWII era
for any piece of electronics that worked well on shore but
consistently failed at sea.

However, there is reason to believe this slang use may be a decade
older. Several respondents have connected it to the brand name of
a device called a "Kluge paper feeder", an adjunct to mechanical
printing presses. Legend has it that the Kluge feeder was designed
before small, cheap electric motors and control electronics; it
relied on a fiendishly complex assortment of cams, belts, and
linkages to both power and synchronize all its operations from one
motive driveshaft. It was accordingly temperamental, subject to
frequent breakdowns, and devilishly difficult to repair -- but oh,
so clever! People who tell this story also aver that `Kluge' was
the name of a design engineer.

There is in fact a Brandtjen & Kluge Inc., an old family business
that manufactures printing equipment -- interestingly, their name
is pronounced /kloo'gee/! Henry Brandtjen, president of the
firm, told me (ESR, 1994) that his company was co-founded by his
father and an engineer named Kluge /kloo'gee/, who built and
co-designed the original Kluge automatic feeder in 1919.
Mr. Brandtjen claims, however, that this was a *simple* device
(with only four cams); he says he has no idea how the myth of its
complexity took hold.

{TMRC} and the MIT hacker culture of the early '60s seems to
have developed in a milieu that remembered and still used some WWII
military slang (see also {foobar}). It seems likely that
`kluge' came to MIT via alumni of the many military electronics
projects that had been located in Cambridge (many in MIT's
venerable Building 20, in which {TMRC} is also located) during
the war.

The variant `kludge' was apparently popularized by the
{Datamation} article mentioned above; it was titled "How
to Design a Kludge" (February 1962, pp. 30, 31). This spelling was
probably imported from Great Britain, where {kludge} has an
independent history (though this fact was largely unknown to
hackers on either side of the Atlantic before a mid-1993 debate in
the Usenet group alt.folklore.computers over the First and
Second Edition versions of this entry; everybody used to think
{kludge} was just a mutation of {kluge}). It now appears that
the British, having forgotten the etymology of their own `kludge'
when `kluge' crossed the Atlantic, repaid the U.S. by lobbing the
`kludge' orthography in the other direction and confusing their
American cousins' spelling!

The result of this history is a tangle. Many younger U.S. hackers
pronounce the word as /klooj/ but spell it, incorrectly for its
meaning and pronunciation, as `kludge'. (Phonetically, consider
huge, refuge, centrifuge, and deluge as opposed to sludge, judge,
budge, and fudge. Whatever its failings in other areas, English
spelling is perfectly consistent about this distinction.) British
hackers mostly learned /kluhj/ orally, use it in a restricted
negative sense and are at least consistent. European hackers have
mostly learned the word from written American sources and tend to
pronounce it /kluhj/ but use the wider American meaning!

Some observers consider this mess appropriate in view of the word's
meaning.
=====
От Павел Власов
К Pout (19.01.2003 12:30:56)
Дата 20.01.2003 03:18:22

Спасибо, буду знать

Однако не все же здесь программисты :-). Да и Форум то русскоязычный. Наверное, многие участники таких сокращений не знают, что сбивает их с толку.

С Уважением
П.В.
От Begletz
К Павел Власов (19.01.2003 00:23:18)
Дата 19.01.2003 07:02:06

IMHO=In My Humble Opinion (По Моему Скромному Мнению) (-)
От Павел Власов
К Begletz (19.01.2003 07:02:06)
Дата 20.01.2003 03:11:29

Re: IMHO=In My...

Спасибо, что просветили.
А нельзя ли это по-русски писать? Дело в том, что не все участники знают, что означают подобные сокращения. Особенно это трудно для новичков.

С Уважением
П.В.
От Begletz
К Павел Власов (20.01.2003 03:11:29)
Дата 20.01.2003 18:06:45

Наверное, можно. Но нужно ли?

Я так полагал, что это уже укоренившийся термин и в русском инете. Тут мы рискуем опять начать старый спор, надо ли писать "компьютер" или "самосчиталка..."
От Павел Власов
К Begletz (20.01.2003 18:06:45)
Дата 20.01.2003 19:36:59

Re: Наверное, можно....

>Я так полагал, что это уже укоренившийся термин и в русском инете. Тут мы рискуем опять начать старый спор, надо ли писать "компьютер" или "самосчиталка..."

Слово компьютер известно всем (хотя лично я в технической области предпочитаю "ЭВМ"), а это, ну как его, ИМХО, да и другие подобные сокращения знают только те, кто часто в интернете сидит. Таких то ещё в России не так уж и много. К тому же это ИМХО можно интерпретировать по разному (сообщение выше Дмитрия Ниткина). Давайте по возможности почистим наш родной русский язык от иностранных слов и от жаргона вроде "инета", "мыла" и т.п., что и для языка будет хорошо, и для внесения ясности в сообщения плезно. Пусть останутся только те иностранные слова, которые уже всем давно известны и аналогов которым в русском языке нет. Например если назвать комьпютер "самосчиталкой", то никто и не поймёт о чём идёт речь, а вот назвать постинг "сообщением" вполне можно. То же можно сказать и про сообщения содержащие английские фразы, поскольку в России у многих людей традационно плохо с иностранными языками, только многие стесняются в этом признаться.
Так что, по моему скромному мнению, целесообразнее нам по возможности придерживаться традиционных и всем понятных форм изложения мыслей.

С Уважением
П.В.
От Begletz
К Павел Власов (20.01.2003 19:36:59)
Дата 21.01.2003 02:46:34

Re: Наверное, можно....

Ну, видите ли, "ИМХО" прижилось ИМХО именно в силу удобства: 4 буквы, и все ясно. Я вот настолько же удобного русского аналога просто не знаю. А вы?
От Георгий
К Begletz (21.01.2003 02:46:34)
Дата 21.01.2003 10:26:50

"по-моему"...

Когда отнюдь не "скромное мнение" вываливается с ярлыком "имхо", это - неуклюжее кокетство и ничего более.
Я лично употребил это выраженьице на форуме (да и вообще...) максимум 1 или 2 раза за все время.
От Pout
К Георгий (21.01.2003 10:26:50)
Дата 21.01.2003 11:01:16

4u


Георгий сообщил в новостях следующее:84419@kmf...
> Когда отнюдь не "скромное мнение" вываливается с ярлыком "имхо", это -
неуклюжее кокетство и ничего более.
> Я лично употребил это выраженьице на форуме (да и вообще...) максимум
1 или 2 раза за все время.

Это право каждого. Есть хороший но мало известный термин IMNSHO, который
носит совсем другой оттенок. "По моему не такому уж скромному мнению".
Или ИМО -просто "По моему мнению". И даже "по наглому" мнению -есть.
Можно их строенными и употреблять,как градацию категоричности
высказывания, а не просто долбить имхо-имхо.
Сокращения экономят эфир и считаются вполне хорошим тоном их
использовать. По сетевому этикету, или "нетикету",гораздо хуже -
накатанные приемы флейма и ругани, а не отстоявшиеся аббревиатуры.
Каждый раз набирать три-четыре служебных слова, что ли. Русских
аббревиатур исторически нету.

2(кому-то) тут уже употреблялось в заголовках.И сразу виден
знак -"адресно такому-то". Это еще один ход мысли. Слова To , two,
2 -заменяются цифрой 2. Бывает и такое - 4u - вместо for you.


Интересно, как Вы "аську" называть будете, этот сетевой пейджер. ISQ .
Можно счесть его несуществющим, по типу нет человека- нет проблемы как
его называть. Странно. Ж.. все же есть- а слова нет.
От SITR
К Pout (21.01.2003 11:01:16)
Дата 21.01.2003 13:57:31

ICQ (-)
От Igor Ignatov
К Begletz (19.01.2003 07:02:06)
Дата 20.01.2003 00:50:54

Ре: Ничего себе! Кто бы мог подумать!

Я догадывался, что смысл именно такой, но не приxодило в голову, что таковы слова.