От Skipper
К All
Дата 27.07.2000 16:36:38
Рубрики WWII;

1943, бой по Ленинградом - 3 выживших из 2400 участников

Про такое кто-нибудь слыхал?

***************************************


In the Summer of 1943, the German and Russian Armies had faced each
other for two years. While the most famous battles raged in places like
Moscow and Stalingrad, the Wehrrmacht had also invaded from Finland,
then a German ally. Their objective was at first Leningrad, then later
to interfere with the flow of supplies from Murmansk. In the end they
ultimately failed, but the entire Eastern Front was legendary for its
harshness and lethality, and this sector was no exception. The war was
closely fought.

It was at this time and place that one of the most remarkable and
under-reported events in the modern history of warfare took place, an
event so ugly that the images of it remain burned in my brain years
after reading about it. My source material is long gone, and I am
working strictly from memory. Yet I am sure that I am correct, at least
in the broad strokes.

By some evil coincidence, German and Russian forces of roughly equal
combat strength were simultaneously sent to occupy the same objective, a
fairly low and anonymous piece of ground. There were as best I recall
about 1500 Russians, and about 900 Germans, who were better trained and
equipped thus compensating for their lack of numbers. All the men
involved were from ordinary infantry units- these were not elite or
specially indoctrinated men. They arrived at the same moment, and a
sharp battle erupted.

Then something truly hideous happened. To this day, no one knows
exactly what. But the battle, though really purposeless strategically,
became incredibly fierce. Both sides seemed to go utterly mad and lose
all sense of humanity. Screaming Germans shot Russian medics trying to
treat them, while Russians pulled pistols on Germans and killed them in
the act of binding their wounds. Men trying to surrender were burned
down where they stood by flame throwers. A terrible bloody rage arose,
and the battle, though small, became arguably the most intense in modern
history. No one seemingly cared if they survived, as long as the enemy
was utterly wiped out to the last man. It was the most pure display of
aggression I have ever read of. The men literally screamed in rage as
they fought, ignoring cover and everything else but their raw hatred and
the most animal of instincts. The soldiers of both nations were utterly
reckless of their lives, and utterly merciless. I question wether they
were really human for that time, but I fear they were.

Both sides pretty much got their wish. There were a total of three
shocked and shaken survivors (all German) out of 2400 men. (Russian
records confirmed their unit was wiped out.) Other battles have seen one
side or the other wiped out with considerable frequency, but only in
this one case that I (or the author of the article) know of have two
units ever came so close to annhilating each other in modern times.
Thank God, the human race has known nothing like it since. That we are
capable of such anger is terrifying to me.
******************************
От Роман Алымов
К Skipper (27.07.2000 16:36:38)
Дата 27.07.2000 17:03:26

Сказка(-)

>Про такое кто-нибудь слыхал?

>***************************************


>In the Summer of 1943, the German and Russian Armies had faced each
>other for two years. While the most famous battles raged in places like
>Moscow and Stalingrad, the Wehrrmacht had also invaded from Finland,
>then a German ally. Their objective was at first Leningrad, then later
>to interfere with the flow of supplies from Murmansk. In the end they
>ultimately failed, but the entire Eastern Front was legendary for its
>harshness and lethality, and this sector was no exception. The war was
>closely fought.

>It was at this time and place that one of the most remarkable and
>under-reported events in the modern history of warfare took place, an
>event so ugly that the images of it remain burned in my brain years
>after reading about it. My source material is long gone, and I am
>working strictly from memory. Yet I am sure that I am correct, at least
>in the broad strokes.

>By some evil coincidence, German and Russian forces of roughly equal
>combat strength were simultaneously sent to occupy the same objective, a
>fairly low and anonymous piece of ground. There were as best I recall
>about 1500 Russians, and about 900 Germans, who were better trained and
>equipped thus compensating for their lack of numbers. All the men
>involved were from ordinary infantry units- these were not elite or
>specially indoctrinated men. They arrived at the same moment, and a
>sharp battle erupted.

>Then something truly hideous happened. To this day, no one knows
>exactly what. But the battle, though really purposeless strategically,
>became incredibly fierce. Both sides seemed to go utterly mad and lose
>all sense of humanity. Screaming Germans shot Russian medics trying to
>treat them, while Russians pulled pistols on Germans and killed them in
>the act of binding their wounds. Men trying to surrender were burned
>down where they stood by flame throwers. A terrible bloody rage arose,
>and the battle, though small, became arguably the most intense in modern
>history. No one seemingly cared if they survived, as long as the enemy
>was utterly wiped out to the last man. It was the most pure display of
>aggression I have ever read of. The men literally screamed in rage as
>they fought, ignoring cover and everything else but their raw hatred and
>the most animal of instincts. The soldiers of both nations were utterly
>reckless of their lives, and utterly merciless. I question wether they
>were really human for that time, but I fear they were.

>Both sides pretty much got their wish. There were a total of three
>shocked and shaken survivors (all German) out of 2400 men. (Russian
>records confirmed their unit was wiped out.) Other battles have seen one
>side or the other wiped out with considerable frequency, but only in
>this one case that I (or the author of the article) know of have two
>units ever came so close to annhilating each other in modern times.
>Thank God, the human race has known nothing like it since. That we are
>capable of such anger is terrifying to me.
>******************************
От Albert
К Роман Алымов (27.07.2000 17:03:26)
Дата 27.07.2000 17:13:05

У Мерецкова в мемуарах упоминаеться роща "Круглая""

где воевали части 206 охранной дивизии. Постараюсь найти и отсканерить этот кусок, типа того что немцы не сдавались и их всех замочили.
Удачи!
От Роман Алымов
К Albert (27.07.2000 17:13:05)
Дата 27.07.2000 17:35:36

Так тут другая история (+)

>где воевали части 206 охранной дивизии. Постараюсь найти и отсканерить этот кусок, типа того что немцы не сдавались и их всех замочили.
**** Не одна из сторон замочила другую (что запросто), а обе стороны взаимно замочили друг друга под ноль, что невозможно. Не говоря уже про глупости со стрельбой из пистолетов, которых у наших отродясь небыло.
От Skipper
К Роман Алымов (27.07.2000 17:35:36)
Дата 27.07.2000 17:43:09

Что и у офицеров не было?

> Не говоря уже про глупости со стрельбой из пистолетов, которых
> у наших отродясь небыло.

Хотя история мне тоже кажется того-с...
От Роман Алымов
К Skipper (27.07.2000 17:43:09)
Дата 27.07.2000 17:50:01

Как говорят бывалые местные - небыло (+)

Я говорил с двумя дедами в Холмово (граница Московской и Смоленской обла). Оба деда провели всё детство ползая по местным долинам смерти, и толк в этом деле знают. Они там были первыми, никаких чёрных в 43-47 годах небыло. Тогда ещё не копали, просто смотрели где трава растёт повыше, удобренная трупами, и подбирали там оружие какое хотели. Так вот, один из дедов сказал, что он так за всё время ни одного пистолета и не нашел, хотя искал специально. Винтовок - море, пулемёты, автоматы пореже, но ни одного пистолета. Вообще пистолет - вещь бесполезная.
От Siberiаn
К Роман Алымов (27.07.2000 17:50:01)
Дата 27.07.2000 21:03:49

Мужики - это можно объяснить(+)

>Я говорил с двумя дедами в Холмово (граница Московской и Смоленской обла). Оба деда провели всё детство ползая по местным долинам смерти, и толк в этом деле знают. Они там были первыми, никаких чёрных в 43-47 годах небыло. Тогда ещё не копали, просто смотрели где трава растёт повыше, удобренная трупами, и подбирали там оружие какое хотели. Так вот, один из дедов сказал, что он так за всё время ни одного пистолета и не нашел, хотя искал специально. Винтовок - море, пулемёты, автоматы пореже, но ни одного пистолета. Вообще пистолет - вещь бесполезная.
*****************************************
Просто пистолеты подбирали уцелевшие бойцы и первые искатели - иметь их было немножко престижно. ИМХО конечно
Siberian
От Роман Алымов
К Siberiаn (27.07.2000 21:03:49)
Дата 28.07.2000 10:00:47

Не, не тут-то было(+)

>*****************************************
>Просто пистолеты подбирали уцелевшие бойцы и первые искатели - иметь их было немножко престижно. ИМХО конечно
>Siberian
****Уцелевших там практически небыло - по словам лелов, через их деревню непрерывно шли пополнения на фронт, но они ни разу не видели чтобы кто-то возвращался - только раненые. В самой деревне огромные захоронения умерших в деревенских госпиталях. Так что всё, что туда попало - там и осталось.
А первыми искателями как раз и были эти деды (тогда-пацаны), до них там никто не проходил.
От Поручик Баранов
К Роман Алымов (27.07.2000 17:50:01)
Дата 27.07.2000 18:02:43

Re: Как говорят бывалые местные - небыло (+)

Добрый день!

>Вообще пистолет - вещь бесполезная.

Пистолет пистолету рознь...
В ближнем бою важнее всего останавливающее действие пули. А оно-то как раз было невысоким, что у вальтера, что у ТТ...

Вот у кольта калибра 11,43 - то, что надо. Неважно, куда попал из этой пушки - противник гарантировано вырублен на время рукопашной.

Такие пистолеты нам поставляли вместе с танками - штатное оружие американского командира танка.

С уважением, Поручик
От Роман Алымов
К Поручик Баранов (27.07.2000 18:02:43)
Дата 27.07.2000 18:08:08

А много их было, ближних боёв? (+)

Вообще пол совести конечно можно бы было и винтовки выкинуть - тоже бестолковое оружие.... И в обороне, и в наступлении... Народ ходил в атаку с ломами, к которым был штык привязан - и получал пулю или осколок на общем основании.