От Chestnut
К Добрыня
Дата 03.10.2003 15:28:36
Рубрики Локальные конфликты; Политек; 1917-1939;

ловим (за руку)

>Для того, чтобы Вы убедились, что использование подобного термина общепринято, я приведу пару ссылочек на статьи на английском языке. И уж избавьте меня от дальнейшего ковыряния в этой теме.

Не любая ссылка на английском является свидетельством общепризнанности. Но давайте посмотрим подробнее

> http://www.utep.edu/pedison/naziww2
>By 1937, these countries were either fascist or communist dictatorships: Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, USSR, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey

На этом сайте такого списка нет. Зато есть вот что:

Totalitarian Regimes

Complete political, social and cultural control
Headed by a charismatic leader
Societal resources are monopolized by the state
Use of propaganda, terror and technology
Examples: Communist Russia, Nazi Germany

Defining Fascism

Political movement created after 1919 in reaction to Treaty of Versailles, social instability and economic depression.

Contempt for capitalism and liberalism
Anti-communist and anti-socialist
Anti-Semitic
Militant nationalism
Dictatorship by charismatic leader
Popular: active and loyal citizenry
Systematic propoganda
Violent

И сколько из режимов из Вашего списка попадают под такое определение?

> http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/countryfacts/estonia.html
>1934 Pats overthrew parliamentary democracy in a quasi-fascist coup at a time of economic depression Baltic Entente mutual defence pact signed with Latvia and Lithuania.

Так фашистский или квази-фашистский?

Ну а если говорить о западных справочниках, то Британника вот что говорит о европейском фашизме за пределами Италии и Германии:

The defeat of German fascism sealed the future of many other fascist movements that had come to power or grown in importance in many European countries partly with Germany's help or protection. In some of them, radical revolutionary fascism, eager for the modernization of the country, found itself in conflict with the authoritarian, semifeudal structure with which it often made common cause against Western liberalism, represented by a generally weak domestic middle class, and against an often exaggerated threat of Bolshevism from the outside. Yet reactionary authoritarianism and fascism fused in different ways in different countries, and with Italy's and Germany's defeat, the merely authoritarian reactionary regimes survived more easily than did the outright fascist ones.

In most European countries there were a number of competing small fascist parties with no strong leader. Some of these came to power by National Socialist military success. In other cases (Britain, Switzerland, Sweden, or Denmark) the liberal parliamentary forces proved to be strong enough to keep the fascist movements within narrow bounds, and in others reactionary elements were able to use fascist movements as their support. The only one of these movements that could claim world attention on the international scene was the originally very radical Falange Española under the leadership of José Antonio Primo de Rivera (1903–36). The Spanish republican regime was established in April 1931, and Rivera was elected a deputy of the right in 1933. But in the next year he broke with it and united the Falange with the Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalistas (Committees of Nationalist Syndicalist Offensive), “a movement steeped in true Spanish frenzy, launched by the young and dedicated to combatting . . . the irresponsible hypocrisy of the bourgeoisie” (Eugen Weber, Varieties of Fascism, D. Van Nostrand Co., Inc., Princeton, New Jersey, 1964, p. 117). The Falange was ultranationalist and eager for a thorough reform of Spain's antiquated social order. But in the election of 1936, won by the popular front of leftist moderate and radical parties, the Falange was unable to elect even a single deputy.

When civil war broke out in Spain in 1936, the republican government outlawed the Falange, which sided with General Francisco Franco; and in 1937 Franco united it with the military formations of the deeply reactionary Catholic Carlists, the Requetés, and made it an instrument of his personal leadership. But whereas in Italy and Germany fascism had absorbed the state, in Spain the victorious conservative oligarchy absorbed fascism.

In a similar way, the authoritarian and traditionalist oligarchy in António de Oliveira Salazar's Portugal kept fascist movements within very narrow limits, while using some of Mussolini's conservative slogans, as did the clerical semifascism in Austria under the two chancellors Engelbert Dollfuss (assassinated by the National Socialists in 1934) and Kurt von Schuschnigg and the Slovakian independence movement under Father Josef Tiso.


Fascism in the Balkans
Radical fascist movements developed in some Balkan countries—most prominently in Croatia, Hungary, and Romania. They shared with the conservatives the bitter hostility to Marxism and the Soviet Union, but they were obsessed by an extremist spirit of terroristic violence in a strange union with religious fanaticism. As a result of German victory the Croatian Ustaše, a party under the leadership of Ante Pavelic (1889–1959), turned Croatia into a state on the model of the most extremist National Socialist Party formation, the SS, or Schutzstaffel, into which only the most dedicated and racially pure Germans were admitted. The Ustaše persecuted and killed hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Serbs and Jews. Catholic monks and other priests are alleged to have taken an active part in this struggle for the “purity” of the Croatian land and faith, and the Ustaše envisaged the revival of the Great Croatian kingdom as it had existed under Peter Krešimir (1058–74) and Zvonimir (1076–89). The dream was destroyed first by Fascist Italy's occupation of Croatian Dalmatia and of Slovenia and finally by the collapse of Italy and Germany.

Fascism ruled in Croatia only four years; an even more violent fascism disturbed the political life of Romania for almost 25 years. Independent of the rise of Italian or German fascism, the fascism of Corneliu Zelea Codreanu was rooted in older traditions of the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Romanian peasantry. As a student at the University of Iasi, Codreanu organized fellow students, sons of poor priests and peasants, into a National Christian Anti-Semitic League, which indulged in murder and a strange fanatical morality. In 1927 Codreanu broke away from the League and founded the Legion of the Archangel Michael, characterized not by a flag but by an icon and by its members' dedication to a frugal ascetic life. The Iron Guard, as the Legion called its armed branch, represented an attempt at a fundamental reform of Romanian life. But the attempt to build a new life was made on the basis of wild blood sacrifices, one of whose victims in 1938 was Codreanu himself. In 1940, after the abdication of the King, a civil war within a coalition of the conservative Army under Gen. Ion Antonescu and the Legion under Horia Sima, Codreanu's successor, ended with the Army crushing the Legion in January 1941. Antonescu's Romania actively participated in Germany's war against Russia, but the Romanian fascist movement remained, after orgies of death, crushed, and its surviving leaders found refuge in National Socialist Germany.

In a similar way the fate of fascism and of reactionary circles was intertwined in Hungary. The Hungarian government under the regency of Miklós Horthy (1868–1957), the last commanding admiral of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, dreamed of the restoration of the former nine-centuries-old Great Hungarian realm. The suppression of the short-lived communist regime in Budapest in 1919 combined with the fascist hatred of Bolshevism to produce what was, for that time, an unprecedented “white” terror. But Horthy himself was a moderate conservative, and, even when Hungarian extreme nationalism led him to form a profascist government under Gyula Gömbös in October 1932, Horthy followed a moderate course. Gömbös died suddenly in October 1936. In September 1940 the Hungarian National Socialist Party merged with the Arrow Cross Party and found its leader in Ferenc Szálasi, who had been a capable general staff officer in the army but had developed a fanatical racial faith in Hungarism that in some ways recalled Hitler and Codreanu. After Hungary's entry into the war, the Germans in 1944 occupied Hungary and interned Horthy. Szálasi was finally the head of a state, which he planned as the “Corporatist Order of the Working Nation.” But the war was soon lost after a bloody winter of massacres of Jews and political opponents. Szálasi was executed; Horthy found refuge in Portugal.

А вот что говорится об Эстонии в 20-30е годы.
On Dec. 1, 1924, 300 conspirators, mostly Russians working on the transit base at Tallinn or smuggled in, tried to seize communications and call in Soviet troops but failed ignominiously. The Communist Party was outlawed, and the movement became virtually extinct. The world economic depression of the early 1930s caused unemployment and the falling off of agricultural prices. The strong government action necessary to cope with the situation was precluded under the 1920 constitution. A new constitution in 1933 gave sweeping powers to the president. Päts became acting president and was expected to prepare the ground for the first presidential election. Instead, he proclaimed a state of emergency on March 12, 1934. Opposition leaders were arrested, the political activities of all parties were forbidden, and Päts assumed dictatorial powers. In December 1936 a new constituent assembly was elected. It prepared a third constitution with a chamber of 80 deputies elected by the majority system and a national council of 40 members. The election was held in February 1938. In April Päts was elected president for a term of six years.

То есть ничего о "фашистской" диктатуре
От Добрыня
К Chestnut (03.10.2003 15:28:36)
Дата 03.10.2003 15:52:40

Требую извинений.

Приветствую!

>Не любая ссылка на английском является свидетельством общепризнанности. Но давайте посмотрим подробнее

Извините, но это чепуха. Впрочем, изворачивайтесь сколько угодно - я уже писал про беспристрастного читателя и его реакцию на подобные выверты.

>> http://www.utep.edu/pedison/naziww2
>>By 1937, these countries were either fascist or communist dictatorships: Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, USSR, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey
>
>На этом сайте такого списка нет. Зато есть вот что:

А за такое канделябром бьют. Есть там указанные мной слова.

Без всякого уважения.
На каждого Бжезинского найдётся Дзержинский.
От Chestnut
К Добрыня (03.10.2003 15:52:40)
Дата 03.10.2003 16:00:42

Re: Требую извинений.

>А за такое канделябром бьют. Есть там указанные мной слова.

Да, действительно есть. Не заметил. По этому отдельному вопросу приношу извинения.
От Chestnut
К Chestnut (03.10.2003 16:00:42)
Дата 03.10.2003 16:04:59

Re: Требую извинений.

>>А за такое канделябром бьют. Есть там указанные мной слова.
>
>Да, действительно есть. Не заметил. По этому отдельному вопросу приношу извинения.

Да, глянул таки, что это за сайт - конспект лекций для первокурсников некоего преподавателя Пола Эдисона в университете Техаса в Эль Пасо. Не совсем понятно, как конспект лекций может служить подтверждением "общепризнанности".
От Добрыня
К Chestnut (03.10.2003 16:04:59)
Дата 03.10.2003 18:44:25

Шутить изволите? (-)
От Chestnut
К Добрыня (03.10.2003 18:44:25)
Дата 03.10.2003 18:53:26

Re: Шутить изволите?

Ну ладно, давайте так. Вы доказываете общепризнанность на основании конспектов для первокурсников в университетах Соединённых Государств. Хорошо, приводите ещё конспекты, программы и прочее, с креденциями их составителей, и по возможности их политическими предпочтениями (ну хотя бы за кого они голосуют в президентских выборах) - для доказательства объективности. Если покажете, что ваша трактовка фашизма поддерживается по обе стороны политического спектра - можно будет признать вашу правоту. Только я сомневаюсь, что вам это удастся.
От Добрыня
К Chestnut (03.10.2003 16:00:42)
Дата 03.10.2003 16:03:19

Принято. (-)
От Justas
К Chestnut (03.10.2003 15:28:36)
Дата 03.10.2003 15:39:41

Приплюсовываем всю Латинскую Америку, страны Африки и Азии.

к (про-)фашистам, только до них не успели докопаться советские журналисты и идеологи...
От Добрыня
К Justas (03.10.2003 15:39:41)
Дата 03.10.2003 15:57:00

Ссылка английская, не так ли? При чём здесь "советские идеологи"? (-)
От Justas
К Добрыня (03.10.2003 15:57:00)
Дата 03.10.2003 16:22:02

Сайт на английском, а не английский

Обшепринятого определения нет.
Почему не упоминается аналогичный диктаторский режим в Бразилии, тоже в 37 г. между прочим? Японию, Турцию можно было бы причислить, а также и Финлиандию, Сиам, даже тот же Китай, еслиб не окупация и т.п.
Почему в "общепринятых источниках" такие вариации и даже по времени и месту их опубликования?

С уважением - Юстас