От Yuriy
К Сысой
Дата 02.05.2002 00:04:19
Рубрики Прочее;

Ре: О европейской


>Здравствуйте!

Здравствуйте!

>В европейских феодальных обществах рабы не использовались как производительная сила в больших масштабах, если конечно я не ошибаюсь ...

Спасибо! Видимо Вы правы. Я, прочитав Ваше сообщение проделал небольшое исследование и вот что нашёл:

“Feudal society differs from slave society in that every class in feudal society has rights and is regarded as human, however lowly, whereas slaves have no rights at all and are treated as property rather than people.
This is not to say that slavery could not exist in feudal society, but it cannot be the principal mode of production. The feudal serf is the main producer, and has inalienable rights to his land and well-defined political rights; the king likewise is not a law unto himself like the ancient despot of slave civilisations, but must act in accordance with law, and his nobles likewise have very specific duties both as his subjects and towards their own subjects.”

(Marxist Dictionary)

“Feudalism too, was based on slavery, but of a different kind. Under the Roman system of chattel slavery, the total product of the slaves' labor was the property of the slaveowner. However, under the feudal system, the lords of the land claimed a right to only half the product of the serfs' labor. But it was slavery, nonetheless.

But while the serfs were also in unending conflict with their oppressors, they, like the slaves before them, were not the bearers of an alternative mode of production and their rebellions led them into a blind alley. However, in the towns and cities of feudal society a new class, the bourgeoisie, emerged that did represent a higher economic system.”

(“Philosophy of Marxism”)

“Most histories of Hungary, like those of other states, give scant attention to the existence of slavery during the Middle Ages. The position of serfdom in "feudal society" is often discussed. Even the lives of those taken as slaves to the Ottoman Empire is a common topic. But for discussions of chattel slavery among the Hungarians, one must look to more specialized literature. Nonetheless, the existence of discussions of slavery is particularly missed in descriptions of Hungarian society under the House of Árpád, as this period is a uniquely important component of Hungarian self-image. Indeed, slavery was a major factor in the Hungarian economy for several centuries, later than in most states West of Hungary, and was regulated by a large body of law. Moreover, these slaves were not just foreign prisoners of war. Many were probably native Hungarians, whose ancestors may have entered the Danubian basin with the seven tribes.”

(James Theron Wilson “Sinespe libertatis: Slavery in Hungary under the House of Árpád)

“Medieval society consisted of three groups of people: freemen (nobles, clerics, professional soldiers, members of the "professions," merchants, artisans, and peasants who owned their own land), serfs, and slaves. The word "slave" comes from "Slav" because the Slavs, along with Moslems, were the most common slaves in medieval Europe. In the 11th century, it is estimated that twenty-five percent of all peasants in Western Europe were slaves. Slavery began to decline in the 12th century, as slaves were replaced by serfs.
The medieval Church played an important part in slavery because it permitted the enslavement of non-Christians. On theological grounds, Thomas Aquinas taught that slavery was a consequence of original sin, and members of the clergy and monasteries owned slaves.

Slavery declined in Europe for economic reasons rather than moral ones. (sic! - Ю. Ч.)

Slaves were relatively unproductive, and people began to realize that people work harder if they have a chance to acquire something for themselves as a result of their hard work. Thus, slaves were gradually replaced by serfs.”
(Dr. Edward Deluzain “Feudalizm”)

То есть рабство и работарговля не существовали в таких масштабах как раньше.

Однако мне всё-таки хочется заметить, что видимо дело не только в Просвещении. ведь в античном обществе, и до какой-то степени в феодальном, рабство всё-таки существовало. Не могло ли возникновение работорговли быть связано с другими явлемиями в жизни того времени?

С уважением!
От Сысой
К Yuriy (02.05.2002 00:04:19)
Дата 02.05.2002 02:57:38

Рабство было с давних пор ...

Здравствуйте!

>Спасибо! Видимо Вы правы. Я, прочитав Ваше сообщение проделал небольшое исследование и вот что нашёл:

Значит память меня еще не подводит пока ...

>“Feudalism too, was based on slavery, but of a different kind. Under the Roman system of chattel slavery, the total product of the slaves' labor was the property of the slaveowner. However, under the feudal system, the lords of the land claimed a right to only half the product of the serfs' labor. But it was slavery, nonetheless.

Здесь, как мне кажется, товарищи сильно ошибаются. Крепостные - не рабы, так их называть - непростительная ошибка для историка. В отрывке "рабством" пользуются как аналогом слова "плохой". В чем разница? В отношениях с хозяином, орудиями труда, землей и т.д. и т.п.

>(James Theron Wilson “Sinespe libertatis: Slavery in Hungary under the House of ?rp?d)

Венгрию к Европе отнести можно лишх с огромной натяжкой, тем более в то время. Кочевые пришельцы с востока не могут служить примером для рассмотрения Европы.

>“Medieval society consisted of three groups of people: freemen (nobles, clerics, professional soldiers, members of the "professions," merchants, artisans, and peasants who owned their own land), serfs, and slaves. The word "slave" comes from "Slav" because the Slavs, along with Moslems, were the most common slaves in medieval Europe. In the 11th century, it is estimated that twenty-five percent of all peasants in Western Europe were slaves. Slavery began to decline in the 12th century, as slaves were replaced by serfs.
>The medieval Church played an important part in slavery because it permitted the enslavement of non-Christians. On theological grounds, Thomas Aquinas taught that slavery was a consequence of original sin, and members of the clergy and monasteries owned slaves.

А это хороший отрывок, вроде все верно ...

>Slavery declined in Europe for economic reasons rather than moral ones. (sic! - Ю. Ч.)

Мне так не кажется. Основная причина - резкое изменение геополитической обстановки - падение хазарского каганата, Халифата (основных троговцев рабами), а затем и монголы подоспели, нарушая прежние связи и установленные маршруты. Да там много чего было, но чисто экономических причин не было.

>Slaves were relatively unproductive, and people began to realize that people work harder if they have a chance to acquire something for themselves as a result of their hard work. Thus, slaves were gradually replaced by serfs.”

Не очень сильный аргумент, т.к. еще с Римской империи появились колоны.

>То есть рабство и работарговля не существовали в таких масштабах как раньше.

Это как волны. Античность, затем Просвещение.

>Однако мне всё-таки хочется заметить, что видимо дело не только в Просвещении. ведь в античном обществе, и до какой-то степени в феодальном, рабство всё-таки существовало. Не могло ли возникновение работорговли быть связано с другими явлемиями в жизни того времени?

Да рабство всегда существовало, и никуда не исчезало. И сейчас оно есть, очень органично включенное в капиталистическую систему в ее "третьемировой" ипостаси.

С уважением
От Yuriy
К Сысой (02.05.2002 02:57:38)
Дата 02.05.2002 17:22:08

Ре: Рабство было

Добрый день!

Большое спасибо за информацию. Надо будет подумать.

С уважением
От Максим
К Yuriy (02.05.2002 00:04:19)
Дата 02.05.2002 00:48:43

Ммм

>>Здравствуйте!
>
>Здравствуйте!

>>В европейских феодальных обществах рабы не использовались как производительная сила в больших масштабах, если конечно я не ошибаюсь ...
>
>Спасибо! Видимо Вы правы. Я, прочитав Ваше сообщение проделал небольшое исследование и вот что нашёл:

>“Feudal society differs from slave society in that every class in feudal society has rights and is regarded as human, however lowly, whereas slaves have no rights at all and are treated as property rather than people.
>This is not to say that slavery could not exist in feudal society, but it cannot be the principal mode of production. The feudal serf is the main producer, and has inalienable rights to his land and well-defined political rights; the king likewise is not a law unto himself like the ancient despot of slave civilisations, but must act in accordance with law, and his nobles likewise have very specific duties both as his subjects and towards their own subjects.”

>(Marxist Dictionary)

>“Feudalism too, was based on slavery, but of a different kind. Under the Roman system of chattel slavery, the total product of the slaves' labor was the property of the slaveowner. However, under the feudal system, the lords of the land claimed a right to only half the product of the serfs' labor. But it was slavery, nonetheless.

>But while the serfs were also in unending conflict with their oppressors, they, like the slaves before them, were not the bearers of an alternative mode of production and their rebellions led them into a blind alley. However, in the towns and cities of feudal society a new class, the bourgeoisie, emerged that did represent a higher economic system.”

>(“Philosophy of Marxism”)

>“Most histories of Hungary, like those of other states, give scant attention to the existence of slavery during the Middle Ages. The position of serfdom in "feudal society" is often discussed. Even the lives of those taken as slaves to the Ottoman Empire is a common topic. But for discussions of chattel slavery among the Hungarians, one must look to more specialized literature. Nonetheless, the existence of discussions of slavery is particularly missed in descriptions of Hungarian society under the House of Árpád, as this period is a uniquely important component of Hungarian self-image. Indeed, slavery was a major factor in the Hungarian economy for several centuries, later than in most states West of Hungary, and was regulated by a large body of law. Moreover, these slaves were not just foreign prisoners of war. Many were probably native Hungarians, whose ancestors may have entered the Danubian basin with the seven tribes.”

>(James Theron Wilson “Sinespe libertatis: Slavery in Hungary under the House of Árpád)

>“Medieval society consisted of three groups of people: freemen (nobles, clerics, professional soldiers, members of the "professions," merchants, artisans, and peasants who owned their own land), serfs, and slaves. The word "slave" comes from "Slav" because the Slavs, along with Moslems, were the most common slaves in medieval Europe. In the 11th century, it is estimated that twenty-five percent of all peasants in Western Europe were slaves. Slavery began to decline in the 12th century, as slaves were replaced by serfs.
>The medieval Church played an important part in slavery because it permitted the enslavement of non-Christians. On theological grounds, Thomas Aquinas taught that slavery was a consequence of original sin, and members of the clergy and monasteries owned slaves.

>Slavery declined in Europe for economic reasons rather than moral ones. (sic! - Ю. Ч.)

>Slaves were relatively unproductive, and people began to realize that people work harder if they have a chance to acquire something for themselves as a result of their hard work. Thus, slaves were gradually replaced by serfs.”
>(Dr. Edward Deluzain “Feudalizm”)

>То есть рабство и работарговля не существовали в таких масштабах как раньше.

>Однако мне всё-таки хочется заметить, что видимо дело не только в Просвещении. ведь в античном обществе, и до какой-то степени в феодальном, рабство всё-таки существовало. Не могло ли возникновение работорговли быть связано с другими явлемиями в жизни того времени?

Мне тяжело дать здесь какой-либо "оригинальный" ответ, так как недостаточно с знаком темой, но склоняюсь к тому, что рабство было возобновлено и продуктом Просвящения - деление на избранных и отверженных, на первый и "никакой" сорт. Возможно, что оно стало снова "эффективным" и восстребованным, как в США, по причине возникновения кап. общества и нужды в большом кол-ве рабочих рук для освоения земель и "бизнеса", и чем дешевле, тем лучше - к тому же, как пишет С.Г.Кара-Мурза, негры рабы, из традиционного общества, были крайне "эффективны" и производительны.