От	В. Кашин
К	All
Дата	25.11.2003 11:52:09
Рубрики	Флот;

Вопрос Exeterу и другим мореманам. Как оценивать такой китайский фортель?

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Добрый день!

Вот такая статья :

(здесь говорится об учениях китайского подводного флота в непосредственной близости от Японии. Якобы японская ПЛО прозевала эти учения и ничего не знала о них до тех пор, пока ПЛ типа "Мин" не всплыла и не вывесила демонстративно красный флаг - и все это в 25 милях от японского порта Сатамисаки, преф. Кагосима, о. Кюсю. Перед этим ПЛ якобы прошла незамеченной через узкий пролив Осуми между о. Кюсю и Танегасима).

Это пустая похвальба, или у японцев действительно могут быть проблемы в случае охоты за таким старьем как "Мин" (фактически - усовершенствованный пр.633)?



China's navy floats a warning to Taiwan
By Iris Tsang
HONG KONG - A Chinese submarine intentionally surfaced in the vicinity of Japanese waters recently after a stealthy drill, staging a show of the Chinese navy's ability to dodge Japan's reconnaissance and sending a warning to the United States, Japan and even Taiwan.

Around 8am on November 12, a Japanese Marine Self-Defense Force P-3C spotted a Chinese attack submarine heading west on the surface of international waters 25 miles east of Satamisaki, a port town of Kagoshima prefecture on Kyushu Island. The sub sailed through the Osumi Strait between Kyushu and Tanegashima, a tiny southern Japanese island.

The information was confirmed by Chinese authorities the next day, when Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said the submarine's appearance in waters near Japan was "routine maritime training".

But the submarine was discovered sailing westward, meaning that it was already on a return voyage from a secret mission before it deliberately floated up to the surface for detection, according to an analysis by military strategists.

Taiwan, long coveted by mainland China, has been implicitly covered by a US-Japan security pact since September 1997, when the Guidelines for Japan-US Defense Cooperation signed by the two sides extended Japan's military leverage into "situations in areas surrounding Japan". The concept "situations in areas surrounding Japan" is not defined as "geographic" but "situational". Under the guidelines, the two governments "will make every effort, including diplomatic efforts, to prevent further deterioration of the situation".

Yet the 2,113-ton diesel-powered Ming-class vessel, which popped up at a record-close distance from the Japanese shore, demonstrates the Chinese navy's power to breach Japan's and the United States' joint defense of Taiwan.

And as some media have put it, the submarine was not even detected by Japan's US-made P-3C Orion aircraft, allegedly the most advanced anti-submarine scouts in the world, until China's national flag was hoisted after its surfacing. The news has been interpreted as a deliberate move by China to humiliate Japan, a major informant for the United States in any cross-Strait tension. If China did undertake any military deployment near the Taiwan Strait, it would be predictable from this incident how swiftly Japan could react.

The move by the Chinese navy and the prompt response from the Foreign Ministry are no coincidence. Rather, they are an example of how responses have been arranged purposefully to deal with escalating tension in the Taiwan Strait.

Recently, Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian has been pushing his notion of a referendum for a new constitution, an intrigue for legalizing the separation of the island. Accordingly, Beijing has highlighted its anti-separatism stance. Many People's Liberation Army (PLA) senior generals have reiterated seriously that Taiwan's declaration of separation would also be the mainland's declaration of war against the island, as Luo Yuan, director of the research center the Chinese Academy of Military Science, said in a Beijing seminar last Tuesday on cross-Strait relations.

According to Taiwan's International Defense Review, the submarine, belonging to the East Sea Fleet of the PLA Navy, might have commenced its voyage from Zhoushan base at the mouth of Hangzhou Bay, Zhejiang province. Moreover, the fleet's major mission is all Taiwan-related: it is qualified to wage attacks on Taiwan, if necessary; on the other hand, it is capable of blockading the East China Sea and hence pricking the island's bubble of US aid.

Military experts have always closely watched the development of the Chinese navy. A report in the Washington Observer Weekly in May pointed out that Chinese submarine forces were facing problems with aging and that at present it was difficult for China to develop new submarines. Nonetheless, US military experts dare not play down the functionality of Chinese submarines.

In fact, this is not the only example of the Chinese navy's underwater capabilities. According to a Washington Times report on June 2, 2001, which quoted informed sources in the US military, a Chinese Ming-class attack submarine once departed from Qingdao port in eastern China's Shangdong province and kept sailing underwater for one month. To top it all off, US intelligence completely failed to detect such a move. Some intelligence believes this shows that China has been significantly improving its combat capacities underwater.

A report from Hong Kong's The Sun daily covering the story suggested that the submarine's movement was obviously designed to show China's teeth.

Apparently as a response to Chinese military action, the US military has offered a helping hand to Taiwan by announcing that the Taiwanese military has successfully test-launched an AIM-120 advanced medium-range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM) in the United States.

AMRAAM is a new-generation air-to-air missile with all-weather and beyond-visual-range capability. The Taiwan Air Force has been longing for it for several years in order to secure its air supremacy over China. According to the China Times Express in Taiwan, the US agreed in 2000 to sell the AMRAAM to the island, but the US$150 million AMRAAM sale comes with an offset agreement that delivery of the missiles would not take place until mainland China had acquired missiles with parallel capabilities.

Ahead of Taiwan, the mainland has already acquired the R-77 missile ("AMRAAMSKI"), researched and manufactured by the Russian Vympel State Machinery Design Bureau in 2002. This Russian missile resembles, and in some respects matches, AMRAAM. This is why the US is accelerating its delivery pace for Taiwan.

(Copyright 2003 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)




С уважением, Василий Кашин

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От	Exeter
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 11:52:09)
Дата	25.11.2003 20:40:46

Нормально

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Здравствуйте, уважаемый В.Кашин!

Нормально это можно оценить. ДЭПЛ весьма трудный орешек для ПЛО, особенно в прибрежных водах. И не только "Минь", но даже пр.613.
К тому же неизвестно реальное состояние японской ПЛО в том районе. Учения сами, скорее всего, велись вовсе не в 25 милях от Сатамисаки. А скрытное подползание к берегу на электромоторах само по себе ни о чем не говорит.



С уважением, Exeter

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От	В. Кашин
К	Exeter (25.11.2003 20:40:46)
Дата	26.11.2003 11:20:25

А можно ли это рассматривать как демонстрацию возможностей

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Добрый день!

старых китайских ПЛ на случай конфликта в Тайваньском проливе? Получается, что десятки Ромео и Мин разбрасывающие мины на подходах к портам могут стать огромной проблемой не то что для тайваньцев, но и для японцев с американцами (японское участие в этом конфликте в случае его начала рассматривается как весьма вероятное)?
С уважением, Василий Кашин

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От	Николай Поникаров
К	В. Кашин (26.11.2003 11:20:25)
Дата	26.11.2003 12:47:03

На подходах к портам сравнительно просто организовать ПЛО и ПМО (-)

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От	FVL1~01
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 11:52:09)
Дата	25.11.2003 15:13:34

Никаких технических трудностей. Расслабились и прошляпили

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И снова здравствуйте
ибо даже электромоторы с устревшей передачей на 633й шумят по своременным меркам довольно сильно


Скорее всего просто человеческий фактор, теперь будут бдительнее.


С уважением ФВЛ

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От	В. Кашин
К	FVL1~01 (25.11.2003 15:13:34)
Дата	25.11.2003 16:33:41

Тогда китайцы своим демонстративным всплытием сделали глупость

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Добрый день!
Лишний раз научили японцев бдительности.
С уважением, Василий Кашин

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От	Мелхиседек
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 16:33:41)
Дата	25.11.2003 16:37:10

не факт

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>Лишний раз научили японцев бдительности.
возможно это просто политический "показ флага"

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От	apple16
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 11:52:09)
Дата	25.11.2003 14:00:54

Вот другой источник

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Китайская лодка тип Ming обнаружена в 40 километрах
от японской префектуры Кагошима.

035 SERIES SUBMARINES REINFORCE ELECTRONIC RECONNAISSANCE

http://www.kanwa.com/eindex.html

Japan Defence Agency Photo

PLAN Ming class submarine was detected on high sea 40 km away from Japan's Kagoshima prefecture with over-water-sail condition, which indicates that Chinese submarines are more and more difficult to be detected.

The photo shows that Ming was detected when it just flew up as the diesels was starting to work. No antenna of the SRW209 radar signal surveillance system was found there. Kanwa anylizes this is a latest upgraded Ming ES5F. Sailing close to Japan is for demonstrating the deterrence power against the US-Japan military exercise conducted now, while operating ESM.

How is noise reduction on the upgraded version 035 series submarines? Although it is still no comparison with KILO or the NATO standard submarines, the sources from the US Navy says that it is no longer as easy to detect China's submarines as before.(Kanwa)

=================================================

Kanwa has discovered that on Project 035 No.XXX and No.XXX submarines, a SRW209 ESM similar to that on No.361 has been installed. Kanwa's preliminary judgment is that on the later versions of 035 ES5E, SWR209 is installed on the vessels in order to reinforce the submarine's electronic reconnaissance capability. It can at the same time explain why the upgraded No.361 did not have the designation Number. The frequent activities by Chinese submarines along the eastern coast of the Taiwan Island seem to be the result of Chinese Navy's reinforced electronic reconnaissance operations.

It is estimated that the 035 series submarines outfitted with SRW209 are the mainstay vessels in these reconnaissance activities. Meanwhile, it is also possible that No.361-363 submarines receive directly operation orders from No.3 Department of the Headquarters of General Staff.

SRW209 was displayed in the Beijing 2002 Electronic Appliance Exhibition. It is mainly used for detecting, analyzing, identifying radar signals in the air, on the water and the coast. SRW209 has the function of radar warning and its working frequency is S-Ku band. The whole system is composed of a 360 degree antenna and a multi-functional colour monitor. Judging from the condition of the antenna's working pattern on No.361 submarine after it was pulled back to the port, No.361 might have been under the status of snorkel depth navigation. Its attack periscope, search periscopes and SRW206 ESM were all in lifted-up condition. As we did not see the radar antenna, the possibility can be excluded that No.361 Submarine was navigating on the surface of water. Kanwa has also discovered that No.361 adopts the same attack periscope as that on Type 039 No.320 "Song" class submarine. The 035 Series are outfitted with Type 208G or Type 779 attack periscopes capable of laser ranging.

The search periscope looks very new externally, which is slightly different from that on Type 039 No.320. Project 035 submarines are either outfitted with Type 707G or Type 778 search periscopes which are equipped with micro optic-electronic TV systems.

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От	Warrior Frog
К	apple16 (25.11.2003 14:00:54)
Дата	25.11.2003 18:38:40

Цвет у нее странный (+)

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Или это она водорослями обматалась? Тогда совсем уж по мелководью в подводном положении шастала. Метров 30 примерно.


Александр

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От	apple16
К	Warrior Frog (25.11.2003 18:38:40)
Дата	25.11.2003 19:00:39

Re: Цвет у...

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Пишут что она травкой
Red Algae known as "Nori" in Japanese поросла


Вот увеличенное фото

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От	Куст
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 11:52:09)
Дата	25.11.2003 14:00:52

Re: Вопрос Exeterу...

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> Это пустая похвальба, или у японцев действительно могут быть проблемы в случае охоты за таким старьем как "Мин" (фактически - усовершенствованный пр.633)?

Как бывший гидроакустик с БПК 1155 могу заметить, что обнаружить ПЛ на электромоторах
очень сложная задача. Реально она решается с привлечением доп-но авиации и ПЛ.

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От	В. Кашин
К	Куст (25.11.2003 14:00:52)
Дата	25.11.2003 16:31:54

Там была авиация. Р-3С (-)

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От	bencun
К	В. Кашин (25.11.2003 16:31:54)
Дата	25.11.2003 17:05:36

Не факт.

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Могли быть и "Нептуны". Тут важен факт что расслабившиеся Японцы на выполняют мероприятия по поддержанию оперативного режима. Китаец же скорее всего заблукал. Это с ними и раньше случалось. Флаг вывесил потому, что при транзитном мирном проходе проливами обязан его нести.

С уважением

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От	Exeter
К	bencun (25.11.2003 17:05:36)
Дата	25.11.2003 20:41:51

КАкие "Нептуны"?? Их сняли с вооружения лет 15 назад последние :-)) (-)

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От	Куст
К	Exeter (25.11.2003 20:41:51)
Дата	25.11.2003 21:17:41

Re: В 90-м летали еще. Сам видел, есть фоты (-)

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От	Exeter
К	Куст (25.11.2003 21:17:41)
Дата	25.11.2003 22:23:29

Ну так то в 1990-м. Последние шесть машин были списаны в 1993 году (-)

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От	В. Кашин
К	bencun (25.11.2003 17:05:36)
Дата	25.11.2003 17:27:15

В статье написано, что всплывшую лодку с флагом обнаружил P-3C (-)

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