От Прудникова
К Прудникова
Дата 28.01.2011 13:10:09
Рубрики WWII;

Re: Так что...

А ведь действительно... Я тут порылась: все ссылки восходят к двум источникам: "вики" со ссылкой на польские и немецкие документы и "Энциклопедии Третьего Рейха" Воропаева.
А кто прав-то?
От Chestnut
К Прудникова (28.01.2011 13:10:09)
Дата 28.01.2011 15:23:38

Может быть, это чем-нибудь поможет?

The tool of persecution, the Einsatzgruppe, was
the creation of Heinrich Himmler’s right-hand man,
Reinhard Heydrich. The Einsatzgruppen were
special task forces led by Security Police and
including other policemen, whose apparent mission
was to pacify the rear areas after military expansion.
As of 1939 they were subordinate to Heydrich’s
Reich Security Main Office, which united the Security
Police (a state institution) with the Sicherheitsdienst,
or SD (the intelligence service of the SS, a Nazi
party institution). Einsatzgruppen had been deployed
in Austria and Czechoslovakia, but met little
resistance in these countries and had no special
mission to kill selected groups. It was in Poland that
the Einsatzgruppen were to fulfill their mission as
“ideological soldiers” by eliminating the educated
classes of a defeated enemy. (They were in some
sense killing their peers: fifteen of the twenty-five
Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommando commanders
had doctorates.) In Operation Tannenberg, Heydrich
wanted the Einsatzgruppen to render “the upper
levels of society” harmless by murdering sixty-one
thousand Polish citizens. As Hitler put it, “only a
nation whose upper levels are destroyed can be
pushed into the ranks of slavery.” The ultimate goal
of this decapitation project was to “destroy Poland”
as a functioning society. By killing the most
accomplished Poles, the Einsatzgruppen were to
make Poland resemble the German racist fantasy of
the country, and leave the society incapable of
resisting German rule.18
The Einsatzgruppen approached their task with
murderous energy, but lacked the experience and
thus the skills of the NKVD. They killed civilians, to
be sure, often under the cover of retaliatory
operations against supposed partisans. In
Bydgoszcz the Einsatzgruppen killed about nine
hundred Poles. In Katowice they killed another 750
in a courtyard, many of them women and girls. All in
all, the Einsatzgruppen probably killed about fifty
thousand Polish citizens in actions that had nothing
to do with combat. But these were not, it seems, the
first fifty thousand on their list of sixty-one thousand.
They were very often groups selected on the spur of
the moment. Unlike the NKVD, the Einsatzgruppen
did not follow protocols carefully, and in Poland they
did not keep careful records of the people they
killed.19

18 On the sixty-one thousand Polish citizens, see
Rossino, Hitler, 15, also 30; “destroy Poland” is at
77. See also, generally, Ingrao, “Violence,” 219-220.
On Heydrich and Hitler, see Mallman,
Einsatzgruppen, 57; and Mańkowski,
“Ausserordentliche,” 7. On the doctorates, see
Browning, Origins, 16.
19 On Katowice, see Rossino, Hitler, 78. On the
absence of good records, see Mallman,
Einsatzgruppen, 80.

Это из http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465002390/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1296217397&sr=8-3

'Бій відлунав. Жовто-сині знамена затріпотіли на станції знов'
От Прудникова
К Chestnut (28.01.2011 15:23:38)
Дата 28.01.2011 15:51:15

Re: Может быть,...

Это примерно то же, чт в "вики".

Впрочем, в данном случае, как ни странн, мне кажется, что лопухнулась наша энциклопедия.
От Chestnut
К Прудникова (28.01.2011 15:51:15)
Дата 28.01.2011 17:57:57

вот ещё

By the end of August, these task forces had been given Special Wanted
Persons Lists, which had been compiled jointly by the Security Police and the Abwehr, German military counter-intelligence. These lists consisted of ten ledgers containing over sixty thousand names, who were the targets of Operation Tannenberg - Tannenberg being the name of a famous defeat the Teutonic Knights suffered in 1410 at the hands of the Poles, as well as the location of General Paul von Hindenburg's victory over the Russians in 1914 - for the liquidation of Poland's elites. There was no doubt from where the order came: writing to a colleague, Heydrich said that Hitler had given him еhe 'extraordinarily radical... order for the liquidation of various
circles of the Polish leadership, [killings] that ran into the thousands'.21

ссылка на Confidential Protocol dated 28 September 1939, in DGFP Series D (1937-45) vol. 8 (London 1954) doc. no. 158 p.165

это из http://www.amazon.co.uk/Moral-Combat-History-World-War/dp/0007195761/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296226637&sr=1-1

'Бій відлунав. Жовто-сині знамена затріпотіли на станції знов'
От Прудникова
К Chestnut (28.01.2011 17:57:57)
Дата 28.01.2011 18:01:38

Re: вот ещё

Ну, значит, наши лопухнулись. Кто умеет - связались бы с "хроносом", пусть поправят...